It's hard to believe that I'm all alone
PvP talents in a Raiding Environment (or, Suboptimal Raiding Efficiency)
I'm sure some people thought that I was being a big jerk just out to trample some feelings last night, but I assure you this is not the case. If I didn't care enough to point out a mistake in thinking, I would've just ignored the conversation and wrote it off as hopeless. Here I will attempt to put together a more neutral discussion on why one should not equip themselves with PvP talents, equipment, or anything else that is fairly suboptimal into endgame raiding. Let me point out that my opinion does not matter, and neither does my experience with endgame content, except that I have witnessed what works in TNR and what does not. I am trying to appeal to logic and principle, and hopefully you can see that I do not hold my views just because I take the game too seriously or that I'm a jerknose. I apologize for the long read and will try to make it concise and logical in flow.
Note: This post isn't entirely pointed at Nerse, even though she inspired it. There are points that I will mention that don't apply to her, and I will even take special note to mention where I think things apply to her. As little as I know about her, I have gathered some things about her in our brief interactions.
The Lost Ark - The Goals of Raiding
The priority of these goals vary from raid to raid, but as the priority of these goals of each individual raider will also vary, I tend to be fairly relaxed in the baseline minimum.
Progression and Loot
I think this is the primary goal of any raid, whether they admit to it or not. I have been in several guilds, and the lack of progression has been a sore spot in many of them. This is partly due to the fact that the lack of new experiences causes the game to stale, and then boredom sets in and weighs in against other factors of why we play the game (social, comfort, etc.) and that causes unrest. The other aspect is the satisfaction we all get from accomplishing something new. Even if it has been done by other guilds, it's nice to do it yourself and with your friends and fellow raiders. This goal is where the efficiency arguments detailed later comes into play, but this goal is interwined with:
Dependability and Loyalty
These are more requirements than an actual goal, but raids have good loot systems and raid leads are generous with their time at least partly because they expect raiders to be loyal to the people who gear them. When people join, get some loot, and then leave, this causes some ire because there is some loyalty expected. A raid needs to have people who are dependable for signing up and showing up to raids. On the other hand, we also expect class and raid leads to do their research and remain focused enough to do their jobs. There is a need for people to care about the raid as an entity of itself, or in other words a need for people to care. This social aspect of raiding is where people go from being bad players to bad people.
Note: I think Nerse cares and this isn't her problem.
Fun
This is a rather grey area and one where there is a lot of give. There is certainly a place for personal fun, but one needs to balance this against the wishes of the other 24 people in the raid. If the raid is 100% fun and cares nothing for progression, than this discussion is not for you. But I've seen even raids and guilds that “only” care about fun and let people spec and do whatever they want suffer lots of unhappiness and frustration because of the lack of progression. TNR is about as casual as a raiding PuG gets. We raid only 10 hours a week and we all manage to have fun despite some frustrations. If you do not have fun getting loot and progressing in content, then you must ask yourself why you are raiding. I will treat this subject more throughout this piece.
II. Mythbusters – Debunking Common Arguments Against Raiding Efficiency
Theorycrafting is a very... theoretical thing. It is very dangerous for everyone to think one way, and I always encourage discourse about what is the best spec, gear, rotation, and strategy. I think some things in this area are up for argument, but some are certainly not (such as PvP talents).
But I'm doing more damage/healing than the other guy!
This is one we heard from various people in the channel last night in defense of Nerse against Zalin. Though Zalin may not be able to execute his healing, but that doesn't mean his theory is unsound. The question isn't whether you outheal or outdamage the next person in your raid, the point is whether you are able to outheal or outdamage yourself in your current state. This is also an argument I heard from Sat (and possibly Mokaz) regarding Mokaz raiding as Marksmanship. Though Mokaz's other arguments and approach too the discussion was very acceptable and I respect him for that, this particular reason does not garner any validity. The fact that you can outdps the noobs in your raid means nothing. How do you compare against top guilds in WWS? That's the question that needs to be answered. The crux of what I'm getting at here is it is only fruitful to compare yourself against people who are doing better than you, not worse.
Note: For the record, Mokaz also pointed out that he didn't notice any increase when he switched to BM, although I am unsure of whether this is a gear issue or something? Either way, it's an example of how to argue raiding efficiency.
But it keeps me alive!
This is one that we heard from Nerse last night. And in order to debunk this, I only ask this one question: How do the other healers in your raid stay alive without those same PvP talents? You should ask them and learn from them. Anecdotes about how those talents “saved” you are not enough. I view these anecdotes in the same light as I view insurance and the lottery. The occasional and rare circumstance where they come in handy are not worth the overall efficiency. If you are dying a lot, then you're likely doing something wrong (not moving out of aoe, not being aware of your own health, not gearing quite enough stamina) or your raid is (tanks are not picking up all the adds). Find out from your fellow raiders what the reasons may be. Again, to tie it back into progression, you are slowing down the progression of all your fellow raiders because you can't be bothered to pay attention so that you won't be caught in a stun and have a need for those three points spent in a bad talent for PvE. On the other hand, in a really hard progression fight where you will need to max every ounce of healing/dps effiency and mana efficiency you can get (such as blood rage on Gurtogg for you guys, maybe), you can't get the output you need because you have points tied up elsewhere. Also, on a more personal level and as a note of irony, Nerse then complained about repeatedly dying in the raid last night. Also consider what happens when everyone is spec'cing into PvP talents. How far would you progress then when everyone is doing less dps and less healing than they should? What you are doing, at best, is being unfair, and at worst being completely uncaring to the goals of your raid.
People sighed at me when I made my “but it doesn't have resilience” comment, but I was making fun of this same argument. Resilience keeps you alive against crits.
Note: I will discuss the Blessed Recovery talent specifically later on.
But the game is about having fun!
This is rather a narrow and selfish view when considered seriously. Sure, the game itself is about having fun and ultimately you should have fun. But fun doesn't trump a basic set of principles and decency that people tend to forget in a virtual social environment (especially in a large group like raiding). If you are not having fun raiding with a spec that will help your raid progress, the respectable alternative isn't to do whatever the hell you want at the expense of the others in your raid, the alternative is to not raid. You personally need to balance your desire for loot against your need for fun and find that happy ground for yourself, but not at the expense of others. This principle applies even regular 5 mans. For example, it's not any fun and quite the hassle to run back to your corpse, but it's still decent of you to do it. In the end it doesn't even affect the bottom line. But you've wasted everyone's time.
By declaring this argument, you've basically stated that your fun is more important than other people's, and that their goals don't really matter in the light of you having fun. Way to go.
Note: I don't think this is Nerse's issue, I think she cares enough, just has some misguided logic behind her decisions.
It doesn't make a difference.
This is something I heard from Sat last night. Specifically, she said she could do ZA in a PvP spec, to which I countered with “do you have four chests on farm?” (TNR does, and they still won't let anyone go with PvP specs) Situations will crop up where your PvE spec could help, such as if you accidentally pull an extra group. TNR has BT on farm, and we are still disappointed when a night meets with rather minor setbacks (a good example is our really messy win versus the Council last night), because time lost is still a cost in progression (and like I said, we only have 10 hours a week). And also because we know we can do better.
And again, could you do ZA if everyone in your raid was PvP spec'ced? Why should they have to spec PvE and you be exempt?
Note: I know that Sat would never actually do ZA with her PvP spec. She pretends not to care too much about raiding efficiency, but I know she cares =]
III. Making an example out of Blessed Recovery
For those of you who don't know what Blessed Recovery does:
Rank 3: After being struck by a melee or ranged critical hit, heal 25% of the damage taken over 6 sec.
I should be able to rest my case after mentioning that mobs cannot crit with spells. This means that you in order for this to proc, you are being physically hit. There are two ways this is likely to happen, and both of them can either be fixed by the raid or the priest herself (yes, I'm talking to you Nerse). The most likely, from your anecdote last night about being stunned, is that you're making a mistake positionally. Offhand I can only think of the charging mobs (in which case you're standing too far away) and the stomping mobs (in which case you are standing too close) that stun with physical hits. The second reason you may be physically hit is that you're pulling aggro, and that usually indicates a big heal at the wrong time rather than a necessity for this talent, or that your tanks are failing.
The same argument goes for Blessed Resilience. On top of that, if you're crit by a mob, and then hit again, you are most likely already dead, regardless of this talent.
IV. Expectations
With all this said, there are some things I want to clarify about my expectations from my fellow raiders, and also, what they should expect from me. What you should expect from your fellow raiders and from yourself.
I expect them to care and respect other people's time. Even in TNR we have people who don't show up on time, who don't bring consumables, who don't have their gear enchanted or socketed properly, and this shows callousness.
I don't expect that you will know everything about your class and theorycrafting. I do expect that you will ask for advice and accept suggestions from those of your raid that do their research, however. Or ask an adult you trust.
I don't expect that people take their raids so seriously that it affects their real life. However, people should be communicative about why they're not participating (with the raid leads). Raiding is a commitment much like making a commitment to a recreational yet somewhat competitive sports team. It takes effort and stress to organize 25 people. Show that you're putting in effort too.
Conclusions
You are not being a jerk for holding people accountable to their raiding efficiency. I don't think you should be rude about it, but if people are pointing out that spec'cing Blessed Recovery is dumb, that doesn't mean they are a jerk. It means they care enough about the raid and that they think highly enough of you to think that you care about the raid too. It also means that they are (perhaps mistakenly) confident enough to give you that advice, and maybe you can convince them that they are wrong.
However, they can still do it in unacceptably jerky ways. Being outwardly a jerk isn't the only way you can be a jerk, though. You can still be as much a jerk by being an irresponsible raider.
